Why I don't use the forums as much anymore...

[rhbalto]

I used to use these forums - well not always, but frequently. Back in the early 90's, there was a very active group of us that posted often on the old Prodigy.

These days, our game has been fractured and splintered so much that it seems no one is playing the same game anymore. We've been around for a dozen years or so, 12 team, AL 4x4. I've been a subscriber of HQ since its inseption, and back before that of the old Forecaster Newsletter.

I understand BHQ's desire to cater to everyone, but the Forum info is just not as useful to me. I'm sure the Yahoo, challenge games and other roto spin-offs are fun, but comparing players in various formats is difficult. Sheffield vs Vlad questions dull the senses when mentioned in a game that just doesn't compare ("We are five team, AL & NL, we use three OF, 2 C and must have 6SP and 3RP active at all times, daily transactions, and I can get Vlad for $3549813 or Sheffield for $2168732") - especially in some of these challenge games where you play against a pool of thousands and everyone can have the same player.

I further understand that there are separate Forums for these games, but everyone posts on the main player forums, and it often takes me a while to realize that the games are all different, thus the apples-to-oranges comparisons get a bit overwhelming.

[PD@HQ]

Good point. It can get frustrating. I used to be on the old CompuServe forums with a nifty little software called "Navigator" that went on, grabbed all the message threads and messages you had checked, and logged off, saving loads of dough in those bad old dial-up days!

The forums were very well populated with like-minded souls. As the Internet grew, the quality of discourse declined in inverse proportion with the increassed accessibility.

Anyway, I empathize. Can you think of any way we could improve it?

[rhbalto]

Options

Well, for one thing I can learn how to spell inception...

Perhaps there can be some kind of login that would identify the type of game played, near the posters geographic location.

I guess it would be too difficult to have a "traditional roto" Forum, with player subheadings underneath. You don't want everyone to be forced to look under multiple forums just to get everything of interest. The key is targeting and brevity.

Anyway, thanks for sympathizing with a "back in my day" post....

[Michael@HQ]

There are still a lot of us who play using something akin to the original Rotsserie League rules from the early 1980s, so don't give up. There are an awful lot of posts to sift through.

One poster put his league format into his profile signature. That'd be a good idea if it gets popular. Those in multiple leagues might not be able to do that very easily.

rhbalto, I'd urge you to just skip the roster management messages and only look at the player messages in the major league you follow.

[LongDuckDong]

I empathize and I'll go a step further - it seems to me that everyone on these things these days wants to ask "who do I pick up" or "how does my team look" or "who should i trade" questions.

And honestly, these boards aren't the best place for that type of stuff. If Ron himself patrolled these boards 24/7, its unlikely he could be of a lot more help than your average joe poster.

Why?

Because theres always so much more than just Player X for Player Y - we have no idea of knowing how individual leagues work - what values people put on different players - in a 15 team mixed league a deal might be appropriate that wouldn't work in a 13 team NL only league. The player pool matters, the standings matter, the FA pool quality matters, etc, etc...I think the average subscriber here would be of as much help as the "expert" because without sitting in your shoes in your league with your trading partners and your priorities, we just don't know...

I am currently subscribed to several sites. I won't do it again because to be honest, most of them don't spend any time on the theory behind projection theory, historical analysis or trading theory or this type of info -

I made a post 2 months ago about the impact of different indicators on pitcher performance and a bunch of other indicators and it didnt even get a response. Yet there were 15 other posts from people knowing if they should protect Player X at $14 or something like that. Im not saying my post was genius by any stretch, but I thought it at least could have sparked conversation. Yet it didn't, but the info helped me anyways, which i suppose is all that matters.

Its to the point where people seem not to want to make moves without running it by the message boards. Is that bad? I suppose not. But given that the only person who has enough context to know exactly what you're trying to accomplish and exactly what the deal is with your league is you, the focus of these boards should be about encouraging outside the box thinking about player performance, league strategy, etc.

Theres another site which Ive given my money to which has posted very little original content or strategy talk all season so far but happens to have a reasonably active message board which is heavily moderated and theres a good amount of "expert" help on the posts. 98% of the posts are who do i pickup, trade, etc... Predictably I feel like Im not getting my moneys worth but most of the people on their think its wonderful.

I say this not to attack that site or people who do this - but more to point out that there are a great number of us who wish to see past the mundane (important, but mundane) parts of roster management and focus more on the theoretical parts of the game. HQ is the only site which has done this but in order to cater to the masses, is forced in a lot of cases to spend great energies on the mundane.

I look at Jeff Howard's great draft information - it was amazing how many people took Jeff's words and just drafted off his list without any thought to whether it fit their particular league, needs, etc. Or people who draft LIMA without even understanding why they're doing it. Both then post their rosters and say "how did I do" - and they did fine outside of the context of knowing what else happened. Could going middle infielders and LIMA's be the right thing always? I doubt it. Yet it was amazing how robotic it seemed these boards were in terms of analyzing these things. If you didnt load up on MI or spent big money on pitching, there were people saying teams werent very good, regardless of knowing what the situation the drafter was in, just because of one strategy? Are Jeff and Ron's philosophies excellent? Damn straight. Are they the end-all be-all?? I sure as hell hope not.

This isn't meant to be up on a soapbox even though I know it seems that way, its just meant to show those out there who might be interested that there are many of us who aren't looking to HQ to manage our team for us but instead to stimulate thought on how we might look at things a new way. Im not sure this is what the original poster was alluding to, but its an area of frustration for me and Im sure many others.

[hqforums]

Long... Thank you for an excellent post. What you've described is the current challenge that our editorial and marketing departments have been grappling with here.

It's difficult to be all things to all people. And while we'd like to position ourselves as a high-end service that TEACHES you how to fish, the truth is that the way developing fantasy leaguers typically learn to appreciate that level of analysis is to first be GIVEN lots of fish.

Those who really want to learn the game will eventually start asking, "That's an interesting recommendation; how did you come up with that?" at which point we can begin the true teaching process in earnest. But it IS a process, and for those who crave the high-end analyses only, you have to wade through the questions from those who are still learning. It requires a bit of patience on all our parts.

The best way to deal with it is to answer those "mundane" posts, but also provide some insight into how you've come up with your answers. And hopefully that will spur deeper questions and foster the quest for more knowledge.

RON@HQ

[Doc]

I agree with Long. I am a much more active poster during the winter months. Since most of the discussion is about theory, which interests my greatly. Although I will admit that most of the high level statistics is over my head. (I am only a dentist).

I look at most all of the posts and give my opinion where I think it might matter, but mostly I use the boards in-season for some more "first hand" scouting of some players. I also like to ask some strategy questions but usually try to stay away from "should I pick-up this player" questions. In my league guys like mjohnston and pershino are hot commodities.

I personally love reading the beginning of the season rants on players. It is really pretty funny. I usually don't have alot of in-season flexibity so I concentrate on my draft, and really unknown players that I might not be familar with in-season.

On another note, I think I have come up with some use for small sample size in the early season, and I will post it in the appropriate forum. thanks and good luck

[rhbalto]

This thread has developed a bit...

Patton calls this stuff roto for masochists or something similar. Yes, understanding the "whys" on roto theory is really the key to long-term success. There are players I will never pick up (eg: mediocre soft tossing starters), that others might because the surface stats are good or they just had one good outing.

But analysis was once easier because we all played the same game. The biggest difference to me is traditional roto and daily transaction challenge games. Not only are valuations models much different, FA decisions seem to be based on short-term, roll-the-dice lottery grabs.

"I just picked up Matt Riley. Should I dump him?"

It is DOOM/Quake vs Sim games.

Roto Day Trading.

Instant gratification.

Baseball is six months. Part of the rhythm of summer, to paraphrase George Will. I'll take the long-term thinking model.

[LongDuckDong]

No disagreement on the issues that come with people playing different games. But since its the demand that comes from all of these people that play all of these different games that allows Ron to be in business - I suspect we'll just have to live with that issue.

I'd really like to thank Ron for responding and address his points- I understand that you are in a no-win scenario on this. If you dont provide that personal touch, you will alienate part of your customer base - for a good 50% of your customers, they'll fork down 100 bucks a year to know that a Ray or Patrick or Perry or the other @HQ folks will answer their "should I make this trade" posts.

My question to Ron and anyone else out there - is there enough of a market out there for people who really like the analysis/number crunching part of things just to focus on that and spend less time on the "mundane" (hate that term but i cant figure out a better one)? I'm doubting there is.

The way I see it, roto/fantasy boils down to two factors:

1. Identifying good players
2. Obtaining those good players at an appropriate price/cost

Thats it.

Until people realize that both 1 and 2 are completely reliant on one's own personal league situation, they'll fail more often than succeed when they use generic info or message board advice without context.

I look at myself - Im very good at evaluating talent in my opinion, this resource helps me significantly. Im a terrible drafter/trader. I finish behind players in my league who don't understand the game as well as I do but they play it better, by luck or by design. I wonder whether or not that is something I can improve on - not through trading tips from a magazine, but through being a better in-season evaluator.

[Doc]

I think one forum that was pretty interesting last year was the THINK TANK. I haven't really gotten to involved in this but last year all kinds of discussions on H% and S% and G/F ratios. Good stuff.

[hqforums]

Originally posted by LongDuckDong
My question to Ron and anyone else out there - is there enough of a market out there for people who really like the analysis/number crunching part of things just to focus on that and spend less time on the "mundane" (hate that term but i cant figure out a better one)? I'm doubting there is.

That market, as a percentage of the entire fantasy baseball market, is shrinking, though its raw numbers do remain strong. However, If we have any hope for growth here, it's going to be by educating "video game fantasy leaguers" about the great new world that lies just beyond their joystick. The thoughtful, measured approach is far more rewarding in the long run, but it's a vastly different game from those used to short-term thrills.

And yes, the Think Tank is a wonderful place to have higher end discussions. It's a shame that there's not more activity there.

RON@HQ

[LongDuckDong]

Ron Ive done this, and we'll see if it sparks anything.

Thanks.

[PD@HQ]

Originally posted by LongDuckDong
I finish behind players in my league who don't understand the game as well as I do but they play it better, by luck or by design. I wonder whether or not that is something I can improve on - not through trading tips from a magazine, but through being a better in-season evaluator.

Great and timely thread.

We have pretty lively dicussions around here about a lot of this, as you can gather from Ron's replies in this thread. I think t he next wave of abstratc/theroetical content that will give an edge willbe auction economics and game theory. We've nibbled around the edges a little, but it could be one area where we can offer a real advantage.

What we need is subscribers like you to keep prodding us! Keep it up.

[DiMaggio]

Gotta admit something here. I've been guilty of the "Whadda Ya Think" posts; but it's the reason for this that has opened my eyes and relates to your thread.

This year time is not what it was in terms of having it to spend pouring over my beloved spreadsheets. Heavy workload at the office this year combined with coaching youth baseball and running the league has taken a chunk out of my quality time with the CPU...LOL!

But to my point. This year I found myself in a real pinch and I had to totally rely on the BBHQ numbers without my usual tweaking and research. This led to some of those "Whadda Think" posts, looking for some feedback I didn't have time to do or looking for something I might have missed by NOT doing my homework.

The revelation for me was that I was quickly becoming lazy on doing my homework in regard to baseball and started relying (which can be very dangerous) more on feedback in the forums.

This may or may not be the case with others, but it's like some posters want others to run their teams for them...and where's the fun in that?

Things are starting to slow down a little for me and I'm finding more time to get back into my normal routine. It's just too bad that my team was crippled by my own hand during the draft and now it's time to attempt to repair and out "roster-manage" my fellow owners who always say "You always start out saying that your team stinks and stay at the bottom of the standings early only to spring to the top by the end of the year."

But hey THAT'S WHERE THE FUN IS!!!!